Well yeah Andy Ngo does literally hang out with fascists so that’s a given lol
It was so frustrating watching some people treat him like he was anything close to a real journalist. He’s just the designated propagandist.
I mean that would make sense if Antifa had anything to do with fascism. It’s just one of many movements wearing labels that intentionally misrepresent it’s members.
It’s like being anti-Patriot act and then others claiming that you’re against patriotism.
You’re playing into their hands.
Love this argument.
You wouldn’t know a fascist if it grabbed you by the pussy.
And that’s like saying “If Black Lives Matter were actually black” or something. Antifa isn’t a group, person, or organization…it’s an idea. Much like BLM or Occupy.
The real problem is that the idea ends up losing focus as it gains support, and then it gets spread out too far, and then it dies. Happens nearly every time.
I think you are mistaking infiltration for ‘getting spread out too far’.
Nearly all of what you describe can be most easily attributed to planted agitators.
Love this argument.
Me too!
You wouldn’t know a fascist if it grabbed you by the pussy.
You’re correct. I wouldn’t. Because I don’t have one.
Antifa isn’t a group, person, or organization…it’s an idea.
Tell that to it’s supporters.
Much like BLM or Occupy.
Wrong again.
The real problem is that the idea ends up losing focus as it gains support, and then it gets spread out too far, and then it dies. Happens nearly every time.
Well unfortunately this one persists.
Antifascism is an idea. There are groups centered around said idea, but “big antifa” isn’t a thing.
Being anti-antifascism is pro-fascism.
Tell that to it’s supporters.
Okay, find me one.
BLM and Occipy aren’t organizations. There is a BLM organization. But that’s like if I created an organization called Feminism. That wouldn’t make Feminism an organization. That just means there’s an organization based on the movement.
Feel free to take a seat.
Anti-antifa does not subscribe to the law of the excluded middle, so double negation elimination does not apply.
Is this some enlightened centrism shit? Lmao
It kinda does since, despite GOP talking points to the contrary, Antifa is not a terrorist group or even a group at all. It’s a movement with the sole purpose of opposition to fascism.
At best, being anti-antifa is being pro-fascist and the difference between that and being a fascist is miniscule if existent.
Anti-antifa only means you’re against the people claiming to be anti-fascist. It doesn’t mean you like fascism. Nor does being antifa mean everything you’re against is fascism.
I think it should be noted, the difference between antifa the organization and antifa the philosophy.
I am very much ideologically anti-fascist and I believe I would take up arms against a fascist government, however antifa the org has made some questionable calls in the past.
There is no overarching antifa organization though. Try looking for a website/forum/etc of antifa. There are websites for random local activist groups which call themselves <city name> antifa, but there is no leader or comittee overseeing these groups. There is no process to join antifa, any activist group or individual can call themselves antifa.
So there are no calls made by antifa, good or bad. There are only calls made by individuals or local groups that call themselves antifa.
Fair. I think you can understand them as a group still, similarly to how you can see anonymous as a group.
I don’t think I’m educated enough to say anything against the group as a whole, as I haven’t sat down to do a lot of research on them (I’m realizing now that my comment was made from a BS bias that I had picked up from when I was a conservative).
however I don’t think the logic of the source meme on it’s own shows someone as fascist just because they oppose the antifa orginization.
(I’m realizing now that my comment was made from a BS bias that I had picked up from when I was a conservative).
Damn that’s refreshing to read.
I don’t think I’m educated enough to say anything against the group as a whole, as I haven’t sat down to do a lot of research on them (I’m realizing now that my comment was made from a BS bias that I had picked up from when I was a conservative).
You should do more research :)
Unless you’re talking about this one, referring to “the antifa organization” makes as little sense as saying “the conservative organization”. There are many organizations with variously overlapping goals and strategies for achieving them, but there hasn’t been a singular “antifa organization” since 1933.
I do agree that someone isn’t a fascist if they disagree with antifa. I was just talking about the part where you talked about antifa the organization.
Where is “antifa the organization” headquartered?
What’s a fascist mean to you nerds anyways? Like what does it even mean to be anti fascist?
Quoting Georgi Dimitrov:
“Fascism is not a form of state power “standing above both classes – the proletariat and the bourgeoisie,” as Otto Bauer, for instance, has asserted. It is not “the revolt of the petty bourgeoisie which has captured the machinery of the state,” as the British Socialist Brailsford declares. No, fascism is not a power standing above class, nor government of the petty bourgeoisie or the lumpen-proletariat over finance capital. Fascism is the power of finance capital itself. It is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations… The development of fascism, and the fascist dictatorship itself, assume different forms in different countries, according to historical, social and economic conditions and to the national peculiarities, and the international position of the given country.”
Here’s a list of The 14 common characteristics of fascism. Note that the GOP and their propaganda outlets such as Faux News exhibit every single one of them.
THAT’S what it means to be a fascist.
Hey I recognize you. You show up all over JAQing off and concern trolling.
All I see is “There is no record of this comment.”
Pretty weird, considering I only bother blocking fascists. Wonder why they’re interested in this topic.
I’m kind of famous around here thanks
confused tucker carlson face
Be careful when you punch a fascist. You might hurt your hand/wrist. Best to read up ahead of time.
Real fascist are anti-antifa ? 🧐
There are two separate equations. The third panel shows the negatives cancelling.
I don’t support fascisms, but I also don’t support violence and property damage to get the message across. I will never take a “movement” seriously that uses vandalism to get a message across.
In that case, I suppose you also oppose the Civil Rights Movement, considering it too was often violent and had a significant amount of property damage.
I would oppose their methods, not the movement (ideology, cause call it what you want)
But their methods were a result of their material conditions, and resulted in the liberation of Black Americans from segregation. Do you not equally take fault with the white moderates who opposed ending segregation and used disapproval of their methods as rhetoric?
Unfortunately, when protests get extreme, there is inevitably some level of violence, whether that be to people or property. It is the responsibility of the state to prevent it from getting this bad. People don’t just think “hmm, today I will do some violence,” violence erupts as a consequence.
violence is inevitable, oh joy
Even that’s a terrible view, politics aside.
I slap someone.
I shank them with a rusty scrap of metal to the neck
One of these is obviously worse. Yes, both are violence. Yet to simply try and paint them as such would show you’re either not arguing in good faith, or, as respectfully as possible, your brain hasn’t fully developed.
But let’s mix it up. I slap someone. But I, a man that’s 6’2" and does physical labor, slapped an infant for crying. Seems a little worse than it did at first, huh?
I am being attacked by a random person who is trying to murder me, and in a panic, I grab something, and attack him with it. Turns out it was a rusty piece of metal. Now we have hints of self defense.
Once again, still violence, but both were to different degrees, and the context changed both of them.
Not what I said. If protests last long enough and are founded on unsustainable material conditions, the State has failed and protests will become Riots. “Riots are the voice of the unheard,” after all.
If you think peacefully asking people to stop being pieces of shit works, then you learned a completely whitewashed version of the Civil Rights Movement. MLK led marches and tried to maintain peace, but alongside the militant Black Panthers there was genuine revolutionary pressure that forced the state to act.
Why can’t the oppressed peacefully get their rights from their oppressors?
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.
Show us on the doll where Aunt Tifa touched you.
Fuck the liberation of second world war etc
That was a war, the violent resistance was against a hostile occupation, not a social issue.
Social issues are often hostile occupations.
Especially when it comes to fascists
Aka fascism
We live under a hostile occupation by security forces employed by the wealthy class, there are deaths everyday due to the systems maintained by wealth and greed.
That is just delusional mental gymnastics if you think the US is fascist.
I didn’t say the US was fascist, I’m saying our world is controlled by hoards of wealth and nearly all state actions are to protect that wealth and the people that hold it at the cost of the well-being of the proletariat.
Cooperate wants you to find the difference:
- Storming the capitol
- Violent Antifa protests
One is an attempt to overthrow democracy and install a fascist theocratic dictatorship. The other is protesting directly against that. While you may not agree with their methods, which is frankly childish and placing the responsibility for our social climate in the laps of the oppressed, you cannot in good faith smile smugly and say “same”.
Yeah, Hitler would have stopped if somebody just asked him nicely. I don’t like violence either, but you can’t defeat fascism without actions.
I will never take a “movement” seriously that uses vandalism to get a message across.
“I’m all for trying to protect people and save lives, but you used vandalism!” Clutches pearls in a death grip
What about violence? Murder? Mass Murder? Where would you draw the line, which reaction is out of proportion?
Mass murder is appropriate treatment of fascists who are holding guns. AKA war. The second big one.
That’s quite the slippery slope fallacy. I replied to your comment of:
I don’t support fascisms, but I also don’t support violence and property damage to get the message across. I will never take a “movement” seriously that uses vandalism to get a message across.
Which at no point mentions mass murder. “Oh, you support people protesting? What about BLOWING UP THE PLANET IN PROTEST?! Is THAT okay then?”
The fact that you equate property damage with mass murder really says a lot about you.
Do you think people normally resort to mass murder in protest of, say, slightly decreased toilet paper thickness? If there’s an issue that is so pressing that there’s actually mass murder, then the State is an utter failure for not addressing said issue before it got to that point, and is almost certainly a fascist system.
This is just a strawman.
yes, let’s hope the protestors are well adjusted and their measures are proportional. After all ideologies have never caused anyone to commit a tragedy.
People are driven by their material conditions far more than ideas. Mass protests happen for a reason, there are genuine grievances that are not being addressed. It is the responsibility of the state to properly address protests, and if they fail, they become riots.
No, violence is not good. Nobody is saying it is. However, people are correctly placing the responsibility of the origin of said violence on the oppressor, not the oppressed lashing out.
Please, open a history book.
Whose life got saved by Antifa?
Considering Antifa isn’t a group, the same number of people who have been saved by Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.
If you’re asking whose life has been saved by protests and property damage then I direct you to the Civil Rights movement.
I also don’t support violence and property damage to get the message across
so, you condemn the boston tea party, right?
I will never take a “movement” seriously that uses vandalism to get a message across.
what’s your favorite successful social movement from history that didn’t use any vandalism to get a message across?
I do. Oh violence worked in the past ( and we all know how good the past was) sol let’s do it now too, in the 21st century.
Not really there are anti antifa centrists and leftists that are simply against extremist movements. At least where i live antifa is pretty militant so people basically group it with the fascists which is pretty ironic if you think about it. A long time ago i was also anti antifa but seeing the lenghts that “conservatives” go to fuck up everything we love im also swinging to a more violent leftism.
This is a wording error, a lot of people fell for. Antifa only means you are against fascism and nothing more.
More simpler? If you aren’t a fascist, you are antifa!
You would think so, but the people on my region that call themselfs “antifa” are fasist themselves. No tolerant on who you are or how you look if you are a “white straight male”
You just say fuck fascists, that is antifa, then you say fuck antifa that means fuck yourself? It is very simple to understand. If you are against fascism you are already antifa. Then stop. No need to fuck any more. You are the fascist and then fuck fascism because anti fascism is bad to your fascism but you hate fascism? Good luck with the self fucking puzzle
How would you define “fascism”?
Where I came from it’s the right wings, who wants you believe antifa is a criminal organisation which is far more extremist and radical than themselves.
This is just propaganda. Sure leftists use the term “antifa” more than the average not extremist people but this has nothing to do with the fact, that everyone who is against fascism is an antifa.
tl;dr: Sorting the “antifa” wording to the “baddies” is rightwing propaganda.
According to Wikipedia (I know, but it is a protected article), antifa is a loose organization of autonomous groups that use both non-violent and violent means. Based on that last part alone, I would say that is perfectly reasonable to NOT identify as antifa even if one generally agrees with their agenda.
As for vilifying the opposition, that does seem like just the thing the right wing would do to avoid taking responsibility for their own stupidity.
Hahaha sure Wikipedia says that lol
I mean, it literally does:
Who is saying it doesnt?
At least where i live antifa is pretty militant
You’re full of shit. Show me an article of your “militant antifa”. If it’s as bad as you say someone will be reporting on it.
Mainstream media would kill to get the scoop on this.
An “anti-anti fascist centrist”. What the hell!?
Centrist Nazis, you know, like “I don’t want to kill them all, I just want them to… Not… Be… Here… Anymore…”
I’m anti-anti-antifa.
I’m anti-anti-anti-anti-antifa.
Stop it! Do you want another very long word? Cause that’s how you get very long words. How do you think got the word, antidisestablishmentteroistism?! I already had to learn that word, I don’t want to learn a longer one.
Is this a reference to The Stanley Parable
I meant for it to be a reference to Archer’s, do you want ants. I’ll take either though, The Stanley Parable was great.
Oh Never finished The Stanley Parable, but I thought it sounded like a reference from it
Welcome to germanic linguistics 101.
That’s just antifa with more steps!
Best math course I’ve taken since schooling.
this is the kind of black and white thinking lemmy does best.
You’re not pro-fascist, you’re just against people trying to stop the fascists. Thank god for nuance.
i hate fascists with a passion, but i might not agree with how antifa acts. i do not have any experience with the group itself, i might even agree with them.
for example, i do not like how the last generation glued themselves to streets. that doesn’t make me a climate denier, does it?
There is no singular group called “antifa”. It’s a movement of loosely (at best) interconnected but independent, antifascist groups.
Also, we need all these groups. It’s them who usually organize rallies against racism, fascism, antisemitism, inhuman law proposals, et cetera. Also they organize all sorts of other actions against alt right, far right and (neo-)nazis, like disrupting their rallies and standing in the way of goon squads.
Antifa groups are damn important.There is no organization Antifa. It’s an ideology. So if you are against the ideology of anti fascism, what are you for?
i am against throwing rocks at police and lighting cars on fire in the name of antifascism. you don’t get taken seriously if you’re the one comitting arson.
Never forget the time a bunch of thugs burned officer Chris Dorner alive in a cabin.
Sounds like boot licking, man :(
Is a burning car really worse than fucking over the next 15 generations and the planet
Can’t talk, has leather in his mouth
How does burning a car improve anything? By what logic does not burning a car equal to “fucking over the next 15 generations”?
Misdirected rage, even if it’s initially for a good reason, doesn’t help anything. If there’s a house on fire, you pour water on that house, not one two streets over. You do the latter, you end up with two destroyed houses: one burned, the other flooded.
I’m baffled as to what the point of this comment is, besides waffling about the virtues of not picking sides for not picking sides’ sake.
i have picked the side that’s stopping fascists. but the enemy of my enemy isn’t automatically my friend. i do not respect movents who are known for committing arson and battery regularly.
I see your edit above, i see the comments you posted after said edit, and I’m not sure you now actually got what antifa means. Especially the part about it not being a single, coherent organization doesn’t seem to get to you.
it did. but these smaller, unorganized groups are regularly holding violent protests around my area. and they identify with antifa.
i probably identify with the core values of what it means to be antifascist, but again, i don’t want to be seen as extremist and/or violent.
Yeah, sounds about true. All of the groups in your area are only about violence. Sure, bro.
I’m not pro Hitler, but did they really have to bully the poor man to suicide?
- @KptnAutismus, probably
Its not “the group”.If you look in left and right wing violence in most countries you’ll see a huge disparity, even after the right wing police has significantly biased the statistics. Most people in Antifa groups just go to demos, organize workshops and put political stickers up.
Thats alle the stuff Fox wants to villify, because they want people to be fascists.
but violent protests don’t contribute
There is no alternative to fighting fascists with violence. You can’t have a nice talk with someone who is gunning down Jewish persons. You just shoot them in the face.
Someone supports fascists who want to genocide a group of people? Burning down their car is less than they deserve.
I invite you to learn more about the holocaust. The suffering cannot be put into words. There is no means too drastic to prevent something like it to ever happen again.
let me rephrase. violence not directed at fascists doesn’t contribute.
i was referring to innocent people’s property being destroyed.
if someone arsons a nazi, that’s perfectly reasonable to me.
Might not agree with how antifa acts
I have no experience
^^^ this pattern shows up right before you make a poorly thought out comment. If you don’t have experience with something I’d expect your comment to be a question for someone who has.
Bash the fash!
It’s crazy how many people just on this meme think antifa is an actual organization. 🤦
It’s a movement, isn’t it? That’s still a form of organization.
No it’s not. It has no members. It had no leaders. It’s just an idea. What do you think an organization is?
The NAACP?
A movement can have members and leaders even without formal organizational hierarchy. It just won’t look the same as something like a corporation, nonprofit, or government. The person who noticed that the Proud Boys were coming to town and rallied people to a counter-protest? Definitely a leader. The people who show up on a cold rainy Saturday instead of staying indoors with a warm cup of tea? Members. Just because membership and leadership is more amorphous doesn’t mean it isn’t there in some form.
The person who noticed that the Proud Boys were coming to town and rallied people to a counter-protest? Definitely a leader
Nahh you got that wrong. What usually happens is that a lot of people who are into politics (which left-extreme people often are) hear about this at the same time (through some press release, some proud boys twitter account who’s rallyin their followers, etc.).
From that point the information spreads over friendsgroups, small discords, tweets, whatsapps, in person, slowly but steadily.
Any left-extreme person who hears this immediately thinks “I’m mad, I wanna show those guys that they’re not welcome”. Granted, some of us think about much more extreme things, but back to the point. The first reaction from that thought is often “is there a counter protest?”. People are then doing the same thing but the other way around, as now everyone is trying to find some tweet, event, whatsapp message screenshot, whatever, of someone saying where the meeting point for an event would be. If none are found, someones gonna create something, which is usuqlly someone who’s got a lot of connections with other left-extremists. Often there’s multiple people creating the same counterprotest, which gets super messy at times, but somehow everyone manages to meet up in some general spot.
Worst case you just have a bunch of friends groups going to the meeting spot of wherever the initial event is happening.
That’s “the antifa”. A massive network of friends and friends of friends of friends who are all pretty aligned in their political views (which is “fuck Nazis”) but who often don’t know more then 5 other antifacists.
Often there’s multiple people creating the same counterprotest, which gets super messy at times, but somehow everyone manages to meet up in some general spot.
This is kind of my point, in a way. It was maybe simplistic to use one person. There is leadership, but there are many leaders, and they don’t have a badge with “Antifa CEO”. Though someone really needs to make stickers with “Antifa CEO”. One of my former managers came from activist circles like antifa. She will always be my favorite manager because she is so great at making sure even shy people feel heard.
In my opinion it would be a movement if facism was the status quo. Given most people are discussing Western nations, which while adopting facism at an alarming pace; are not yet facist. Antifa is not a movement nor an organization. Since not being facist is the status quo and antifa means that you’re not going to support facism, in my opinion antifa is the current “establishment” and being facist is an effort to move the status quo. Aka a movement.
People are just nitpicking the meaning of the word Organization. Antifa is an organization in a very loose definition of the word. If you want to be more accurate, you’d call it a Network. Organizations (in the stricter sense) has a single leader and has a very tree-like structure with more power on top (like Corporations!), which Antifa obviously is not.
Though you’re correct in that Antifa is a “movement”.
How else they are paying their demonstrators money for each demonstration?
Soros, Bill Gates and the Bilderbergs, I guess? Probably also that Davos guy who Alex Jones et al TOTALLY aren’t fixated on for antisemitic reasons either, nuh-uh!
Lol you saying they are not? You are funny
Would you like to tell me the name of the official antifa organisation?
Obviously its Antifa© inc. Everyone learns that in first grade🙄
I find this comment thread horribly ironic, and I hope I can show you why without starting an argument because this is genuinely kind of funny.
Fascism is when a state achieves (or attempts to achieve) totalitarianism through corporatization. All corporations are chartered and controlled through the state, and private industry becomes corporatized.
One of the ways they did this was through legitimizing specific channels of distribution, and labeling all who take a more independent route as illegitimate. Farmers, for example, were coerced into selling their products to state distributors, and pressured out of independent channels. Likewise, farmers who weren’t part of the state organization were often treated with suspicion and derision.
Basically, if you were a _____ and did _____ things, but were not part of the _____ organization, then you weren’t a real ______ no matter how good you are at _____.
Anyway, antifa is a real thing that exists, and that’s the thing people here are talking about. They’re a group that has identifiable goals, and they work together under the label. It’s really funny to me that so many here are appealing to “they’re not even a real org” in the face of dissent, because that’s one of the most fascist mind sets that exist commonplace today.
There is a huge overlap between people who would participate in Antifa and Anarchists, so you can imagine the problems getting a structured organization setup and keeping on task and purpose.
Organizations do not necessarily require structure, association is a synonym for a reason. Decentralized organizations and associations are a thing. Decentralized workers solidarity movements and co-op/community strengthening initiatives can be/are “organizing” even if no one is in charge. You don’t need to be a member of a union or an official neighborhood association to be part of an organization, there just needs to be general or vague common intention among a group and something of a shared identity. You might not get as much done a fast when not structurally organized, but you also don’t not exist if your not a card carrying member. I don’t understand the desire to divorce Antifa from being an organization or even existing. It’s like saying that the Deadheads aren’t a real thing because no one was directing the vast majority of fans who packed up and followed the band across the country.
Oh so now you are arguing that deadheads were an organization too? Really? In what universe?
I’m sure that’s part of it. Antifa is definitely not well structured, and anarchists could probably be opposed to any official organization.
Let me put it this way, the post talks about a journalist who investigates antifa, which the op of this comment chain mocked because they’re not an organization. But, this is an argument of semantics, and the post didn’t use that word to begin with. Regardless of what you call antifa, he’s trying to investigate and see what they’re about.
It’s a very dishonest way to deride people. If you don’t mind me asking, if you don’t think the word organization is appropriate, what’s better? I mean I just say group, can’t really be wrong going that general but it also doesn’t say much. Like, when you said “people who participate in Antifa…”, what type of thing are those people participating in?
It’s more of a cause or a movement than an organization. I guess I don’t know why that should be difficult to understand.
