I’m far-ting.
not true, the current wave of fascism across the world force leftists to not tell their ideology openly, hope things change for good
I have the impression it’s the opposite. The left is becoming more militant to contain the right leaning extremists.
I’m old enough to remember when all Americans thought that the Nazis were the bad guys.
Someone’s gotta kill the Nazis the second time around…
Ah no buddy, I’m as far left as you can go, you got this backwards
We could do that, or we could kill fascists.
The left doesn’t really have any political power under capitalist hegemony where there’s economic consensus in the political and ruling class. There are many leftists but essentially no political left, and at the same time politics can no longer impact our economic arrangements, irs basically a spectacle we react to from different angles. What we have are centrist liberals both portrayed as “far left” by the right, some who ignorantly react to that with “yes, I am far left!” And those who actually have a visceral hate for capitalism have almost always been dealt with on common ground between centrist liberals and the right.
I’m not left or right. I hate you all mutually. 👍
ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM is the best I agree
“Both sides,” says one side.
Pure ideology (liberalism).
Ew. I want the government to keep their grubby little hands out of my freedoms, not pretend like they care while ass fucking us.
Libertarianism then
Liberalism for racists?
Racists? Omg. 😱 that’s literally most parties in the US. Democrats have a racist history just the same. Welcome to America, all parties are racist in one way or other, because this country breeds extremism. Even liberalism has perpetuated systemic racism despite trying to dismantle it. All the parties in the US are guilty. Corruption runs deep, and corruption is corpo profit margins.
AND conservatives who like weed and birth control and whatnot.
The name for that is liberal.
Much closer, yes. Have you heard of hackliberty & dividebyzero?
Sorry to say if your views are closer to true libertarianism and the principles favored by those links you would likely be considered distinctly leftist. Dbzer0 is a primarily anarchist community, on the far-left.
Not really. I have views distinctly on both left and right. And actually, hacklibery is a lot more right leaning…
You have views that are independently more left or right, but say if your views were a political party, it would be placed on a spectrum from left to right based on how many of these positions fall on either side of the spectrum. Typically the views that are seen as far left and far right are mutually exclusive, like authoritarian centralized governance versus decentralization, increased immigration vs decreased, but it’s true there is a lot of nuance lost when things are viewed that way.
This is not agreement:
You are right.
But they all say “I speak the truth”
I don’t really get the far left image, is it saying people on the far left are sponsored by tyre and racing companies?
Yes
Raise hell, praise Comrade Dale.
Dale Earnhardt has been co-opted into a leftwing figurehead, mostly just to piss off people on the right
It’s absurdist comedy, a deconstruction of the soyjak meme format.
Middle-of-the-road person: “You are not in a culture war or an ideology war. You are both in a CLASS war, run by billionaires who are the REAL source of your pain. They use the six corporations that control all the news to distract you and keep you fighting with each other so that they . . . the rich . . . can run off with all the f*cking money.”
Welcome to being a leftist who’s so fucking stupid they think they’re a centrist.
I think that the key difference here that would make two people who agree with this statement a centerist or a leftist is whether or not they feel visceral hatred for the right or if they treat them like human beings.
I think that NutWrench is making a joke.
The economic left/right scale is and has always been a measure of which side of the class war you support.
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What about people who are just left?
They’re cowards.
Who are preventing you from obliterating your society. Communism always has terrible outcomes. Please someone post about a stone age tribe in the Amazon that disproves this statement.
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What of the purges, staration, and slaughter
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That doesn’t even make any sense.
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You mean like a Market Socialist or something?
Market Socialist
A what?
Someone in favor of a market economy run by worker-owned entities.
There’s also a middle ground between consumer cooperatives which are more on the communal side and worker cooperatives that are more on the libertarian socialist side with Worker Consumer Cooperatives that align both kinds of stakeholders with ownership and management reducing exploitation on both ends.
Not wholly opposed to that, markets can serve the purpose they’re designed for, and I could see an evolution of cybersyn that helps run the economy using simulated markets.
I certainly think it’s much better than current Capitalism, that’s for sure, though it’s not enough to truly reach the finish line.
Oh, I wouldn’t know anything about that.
That’s what I would consider left, but not far-left. I suppose Socialism with Liberal Democracy, as opposed to a more direct or decentralized version of democracy, would be left but not far left as well. Capitalism ends where left begins.
It’s not linear. Anarchist or Libertarian Socialist systems like Syndicalism, Mutualism, Georgism, and Distributism are just as Socialist as Marxism in that they prevent the exploitation of capital accumulation, but they favor direct stakeholder ownership of firms in place of a state or other more communal systems that create an inherent hierarchy of power.
Capitalism ends where left begins.
I’m not sure if you’re gatekeeping or just generalizing.
Neither. The left/right divide is Socialism/Capitalism. There are various Overton Windows, ie what is considered left or right when compared to an areas median, like Liberalism being left of the American median despite being a right-wing, Capitalist ideology.
Anarchism, Communism, Marxism, and other forms of Socialism are leftist, while Liberalism, Social Democracy, and fascism are rightist.
I think Americans need to absorb a bit more global context about the left-right spectrum. I see people saying that policies like universal health care, access to abortion, basic worker rights and affordable education are “far left”. Most of the proposed policies of the left in the US are centrist in the rest of the Western world. Unless you are advocating for a Communist regime along the lines of the Soviet Union or Maoist China, you aren’t really “far left”. Similarly, unless someone is advocating for a fascist dictator state, we should probably not call them “far right”. Of course, that is what Trumpists advocate for, so they really are far right!
There are quite a few actual leftists on Lemmy. I don’t think they’re confused and as the meme suggests, they’re rather vocal.
Meanwhile Trump and other far right people have tried to brand liberals as “radical left” which is just silly, but a lot of news sources seem content to parrot alt-right rhetoric. One thing the Republican Party has always been good at is poisoning the well.
We’re “not allowed” to. The concept of comparing our politics to elsewhere around the world is chastised. “It’s not the same here!” “They have a longer history” “they share a common culture!” (far right for “skin color”)
Any excuse under the sun to keep the right as being viewed as closer to “center” and to misrepresent centrist policies as “far left” so we get no progress and all the arguments.
It’s really interesting how the right has embraced moral relativism on a case-by-case basis. Often it is a strategy to quarantine/localize ideas, so as to avoid the need to reconcile them.
It’s also a strategy for insulating ideas and events from history that they want to shelter from criticism, like criticizing slavery, theocracy, monarchism, etc. I’ve seen real cases in the wild where criticism of slavery was dismissed as “presentism”, as inappropriately imposing present day moral values.
I’ve noticed that too and found it counterintuitive. The other thing is free market economics. I would expect conservatives to embrace moral traditionalism and economic intervention but currently it’s the opposite…
You’re half right. Americans as a whole don’t need to absorb context, but American conservatives do.
The rest of us are well aware of what’s going on. There are democrats in our government that are pretending to be against “socialism”, but they are old and these clearly dated policies aren’t going to last.
I get the feeling most of that nonsense was just fear mongering to force Biden into office instead of Bernie four years ago.
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At least online, it seems like the only Americans who call themselves far left agree those are all centrist positions. It’s only “centrists/progressives*” (moderately far right Americans) and other flavors of far right who still often dont generally call themselves far right (trump enthusiasts, alex jones types, proud boy types) who label basic things like universal health care a far left idea or just call it impractical atm.
*I feel like 10 years ago, people who were at least moderately left were the main people using this term, but in the last few years, people right of center have been using the label to try limit progress by pretending they’re just trying to be practical/realists about what can actually be done.
Those terms are so vague and have so different meanings to a lot of people that I often avoid using them… I recently read the idea that egalitarian=left // strong hierarchy=right and it kinda makes sense, but it’s still quite debatable
Generally it’s better to separate views by who supports them, and who they benefit. Leftists tend to support the Proletariat, whereas rightists tend to support the bourgeoisie.
Except there are a ton of right wing positions that don’t benefit anyone except the politicians who use them to keep their supporters angry and afraid. I’d go so far as to say left wing policies are primarily about helping people and right wing policies are primarily about hurting people.
Reactionary proletarians are victims of bourgeois culture wars, it’s the fascist anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT rhetoric that serves as a distraction. That doesn’t make the GOP a Worker party even if some workers vote for the GOP.
Left vs Right isn’t about Democrat vs Republican, but class interests and dynamics.
I’m not sure its that easy nowadays, when lots of freelancers and self-exploiters struggle while being considered bourgeoisie. Or at least, not “proletariat”. The lines are not as clear as they used to be.
Freelancers and self-exploiters are petite-bourgoisie, not bourgeoisie. Class mechanics definitely hold up.
If you’re working five days a week for a living, you’re not really a part of the bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie are the business owners, not the business managers and assistants. At best, a freelancer with no employees under them would be petite-bourgeoisie. You wouldn’t graduate to the bourgeoisie until you have a few employees under yourself, who take care of the day-to-day operations.
A lone freelancer is just a step away from an employee, with none of the legal protections. Hire a manager to run the day-to-day op, and employees to do the grunt work, thus freeing yourself up to sit back and collect profits. Then you would start to be the bourgeoisie, because you only need to check in to ensure everything is running smoothly and occasionally sign some new contracts. The majority of your time isn’t being spent at work for someone else.
To be “on the left” at minimum you need to be totally opposed to the capitalist system.
From there, there are many ideologies to choose from whether authoritarian (like Marxism-Leninism, Maoism, Stalinism, etc.) or anti-authoritarian: mutualism, communalism, one of the many strains of anarchism, etc.
Also if you’re authoritarian I’d say it’s questionable whether you’re still on the left.
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Unless you are advocating for a Communist regime along the lines of the Soviet Union or Maoist China, you aren’t really “far left”.
If you do that you definitely aren’t, authoritarianism and far-left are mutually exclusive.
Council communists and Anarchists generally qualify for far-left status. (Or, differently put, council communism is methadone therapy for Marxists who don’t yet dare make the jump to syndicalism).
I’ve never seen that diagram before. I like it.
It’s even worse than horseshoe. Stop trying to assign point values to tyranny.
I award you one tyranny point for telling people what to do.
That’s it, you’re going to the reeducation camp.
I just need to trade in some of my Good Boy Points, good thing I’ve been saving up.
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The first use of authoritarian is in 1852, in the writings of AJ Davis apparently. Here’s the quote:
1856 A. J. Davis Penetralia 129 Does any one believe that the Book is essential to Salvation? Yes; there are many externalists and authoritarians who think so.
Authoritarian was also increasing in usage well before the cold war, beginning around 1910 or so. An example from Nationalism and Culture by Rudolf Rocker, written in 1933:
Nietzsche also had a profound conception of this truth, although his inner disharmony and his constant oscillation between outlived authoritarian concepts and truly libertarian ideas all his life prevented him from drawing the natural deductions from it.
That’s a thoroughly modern use of the word authoritarian, written almost 15 years before the start of the cold war. Authoritarian is used to describe those who support hierarchial systems of government. That’s the short and sweet of it, perhaps not a perfect dictionary definition but it illustrates the distinctive bit. Auth-left ideologies get equivocated with fascism because there’s an undeniable ideological throughline between the two, no matter how much they hate each other.
"The working class […] cannot be left wandering all over Russia. They must be thrown here and there, appointed, commanded, just like soldiers […] Compulsion of labour will reach the highest degree of intensity during the transition from capitalism to socialism […] Deserters from labour ought to be formed into punitive battalions or put into concentration camps.’
Trotsky wrote that. It may not be 1:1 but the similarities between his ideas and those.of fascists are pretty obvious.
All of this, written before the cold war. Tell me again how authoritarian is a made up word that serves only to slander “communists”?
Thank you for the detailed background on that. People often resort to No True Scotsman claims to disavow bad elements from the group they support, or better yet toss them to their rivals. But honestly the more an entity is pulled away from center along the authoritarian/liberal axis, the less meaningful any left/right distinction becomes.
All of this, written before the cold war. Tell me again how authoritarian is a made up word that serves only to slander “communists”?
Is it possible to have organisation without authority?
On Authority - F. Engels, 1872
Thank you for sharing this….I really enjoyed it.
First time I read it I couldn’t believe how short and easy read it is, and what a powerful argument Engels is making
Wasn’t sure if that was a legitimate question or just another example.of the usage of authoritarian. But if it was a question, I’ll leave this video. It’s an anarchist critique of on authority. Short answer, yes. It is possible to have organization without an authoritarian structure
05:22 Acknowledges that argument that Engels is making is that “anything is authoritarian”
05:28 Acknowledges that Engels has a very broad definition of “authority”
06:20 Builds a strawman by giving a context “Engels existed around the time of the industrial revolution”, reading the paragraph about steam boats, etc. and is 0740 using it to suddenly drastically narrows the definition of Engels down to mean “technological development is authoritarian”.
10:15 At 10:45 correctly explains the point that Engels is making and copes hard with the fact that Engels indeed questions the entire political theoretical understanding of authority lol
12:00 correctly understands that the point is that “Anti-Authoritarians want to change society” and if Engels can prove that organization without authority is impossible, it will mean that he will be able to show this deep contradiction
13:55 He builds another strawman by claiming that Engel’s argument is “Steam is an authority” and not the actual argument that the organization of labour inheretly requires authority and in a society without capitalism the production process would take authorties place (i.e Steam)
14:50 Another strawman where he claims that “hunger would be authority” in an ancient hunting times, instead of the organization of how the hunt would take place
This is so dumb i don’t want to continue and its so long wtf Pure ideology, that video was such a waste of time
The entire point of the video is Engles misunderstood what constitutes “authority” in a libertarian framework. He created an overly broad conception of authority and proceeded to (poorly) attack that. If you’re going to critique an ideology you should at the very least have an understanding of what the core concept your criticizing means. Engles made some shit up, put that in the mouths of anarchists and acted like a little piss baby about it. How on earth did you get 15 minutes into the video and not pick up on that very obvious point?
Pure ideology? You’re hilarious. Like y’all haven’t been sucking at the teat of Marx well past the point of his half baked ideas being useful. It never occured to you geniuses that maybe there was a bit more at play than capitalism and anachronistic conceptions of class warfare? Marx’s ideas of power and complex systems are overly simplistic at best, and Engles is a bourgeois pig that somehow deluded your big “scientific socialist” brains into thinking he was one of the good ones. But go ahead and tell me how childish authoritarian conceptions of authority are righ and how I’m a big dumb guy for thinking otherwise
On Authority is one of my absolute favourites because it’s so ludicrously bourgeois. “Oh, you Anarchists”, quoth Engels, “All you amount to is saying that a stone falls down when let go, and that having to hold it up so that it doesn’t fall down, to have to bow to that authority, is oppressive”.
Maybe, Friedrich, your workers don’t mind dealing with the necessities and physical processes of yarn and cloth manufacture, what they mind is not being able to fire your ass for saying excessively over-reductive shit like that.
On Authority is one of my absolute favourites because it’s so ludicrously bourgeois
Are you really saying “Engels was bourgeois, therefore the argument he’s making is bourgeois”? lol
“All you amount to is saying that a stone falls down when let go, and that having to hold it up so that it doesn’t fall down, to have to bow to that authority, is oppressive”.
Tell me how you haven’t read it even more. Because he’s actually concluding:
When I submitted arguments like these to the most rabid anti-authoritarians, the only answer they were able to give me was the following: Yes, that’s true, but there it is not the case of authority which we confer on our delegates, but of a commission entrusted! These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world.
Read the paragraphs directly before: Engels refers to “arguments as these”, so we can safely assume that the example he gives there is representative. What’s his example? Safety in railway operations.
That, indeed, is not a job for a delegate, a person chosen by council to represent the council in a bigger council, a political position which comes with no authority, but one of a safety commissioner, a person who was entrusted with, granted authority, by a council to enact necessary safety procedures for the common good. The railway safety commissioner would be choosen by the railway workers. Someone they trust to be a stickler to details and procedure.
Both, btw, are recallable on the spot should they abuse their positions, or turn out to not be suitable for other reasons.
This is not a mere “changing of names”, the tasks are completely different in character and the levels of authority could not be any more different. What Engels seems to be incapable of conceiving is that an e.g. city council doesn’t have authority over a neighbourhood council. That the delegates the neighbourhood councils choose come together in a city council and then precisely not dictate to the neighbourhood councils what they’re supposed to do. That’s your brain on hierarchy.
So, yes, Engels concludes that he’s right. And thereby proves that he either a) didn’t understand what the anti-auths were telling him or b) didn’t care, as authoritarians are prone to do when challenged on the necessity of there being rulers.
As to “labour cannot be organised without hierarchy” in general: It’s long been proven false. There’s a gazillion of examples in which it has done. There are, right now, armies out there operating without hierarchy that are fighting both Cartels and ISIS, very successfully so. If armies can be organised like that, surely it does work for ice cream factories. Stick to materialism, please, your idealist claim doesn’t become true by repeating it.
Exactly. I like to keep things simple and boil things down to authority. I’m the only one allowed to define me, and I don’t have the right to define others. If everyone has absolute freedom to be what they are, then by design no one has the right to define, exploit, marginalize or otherwise or oppress them. if anyone was oppressed, not everyone would have absolute freedom. Then on top of that we put societal contracts. “Here’s a time period of my labor, would you trade it for that thing you have”. "I’d like to give some of my extra things so that more people can have good things [taxation] “Here’s consent, how about you?” “I go by [pronoun].”
Anarchism -> Maximum freedom for all Hierarchism-> Maximum freedom for the one on top.
Smarter people than me have talked about the nuances for ages so as I said, I like to simplify things. Fullyautomatedspacegayluxurycommunism ftw!
What if I want to use my absolute freedom to oppress someone else? What if I use my absolute freedom to build a structure that blocks the view of the mountains from my neighbors, who love the view? Who’s freedom should get oppressed to solve that?
Honest question, not trying to be a contrarian.
While I would say that graph is more correct than the two-dimensional ones, many of us are fed in the west. (As a social libertarian/anarcho communist) I make the point that I don’t believe authoritarians actually qualify significantly for any form of left or right. They are all about their authority primarily and doing what they wish to do. They will resort to any rhetoric or means to achieve their goals they think will serve them. Whether it is left or right.
Case in point Hitler, who is closely associated with fascism which is considered nominally right-wing. Absolutely aped the terminology and rhetoric of early 20th century socialism. Till it didn’t serve him anymore. China who is more or less The Golden child of ml activists is more state capitalist than they are State communist. Because it suits those in power.
The graph more accurately might look like a deformed Dorito. Authoritarians being fluid and centrist. Not committed to being left or right. On the right side gradually sloping down through libertarians into capitalists/liberals on the far right. Somewhere neutral between authoritarian and actual libertarian. But the more true libertarian you trend the more left you absolutely trend. That’s for sure.
I’m an extreme centrist. Between absolute anarchist worker self-management and overreaching socialist government regulation, I think we should reach a healthy middle.
Based
“I speak alternative facts, making others do the work of figuring out what I meant.”
vs.
“I have researched in-depth and know what I am talking about and why.”
Tbf there are probably far-right people who are more like the latter. Just b/c I do not recall ever hearing those arguments does not mean that they don’t exist!
Tbf there are probably far-right people who are more like the latter. Just b/c I do not recall ever hearing those arguments does not mean that they don’t exist!
Those people are working with the heritage foundation and other far right think tanks. They understand that their brand of mask-off fascism is problematic to a lot of people, so they allow their ideas to percolate through various right wing media outlets and entertainment personalities. By the time their ideologies reaches the mind of your average voter they’ve been neatly repackaged as “hey we’re just asking some questions here, we just want to get the facts straight.”
Thanks. I have no time lately but perhaps I should research them directly and actively then, e.g. to find out things like if the COVID response was used to bring population numbers down as a means of control and possibly thought to be beneficial for the sake of mitigation of the effects of climate change. But probably I am giving too much credit for even that much level of strategic thought towards climate change effects for the survival of humanity and perhaps it is solely “we do not need the masses anymore so let’s kill them off, or at least not help at all with saving them”, i.e. think of myself first, only, and always, and nothing else.
Innuendo studios nailed it when they described the alt right as wearing opinions like hats. They try one on, see what fits during an argument, and discard the argument as soon as it becomes a liability or too much work to defend. The problem is that people on the left try to engage these opinions and arguments as if they are actually held by the person when the person is not worried about consistency. They’re worried about the appearance of victory in a public space, usually a web forum.
The only way to win is to not engage. So I generally will throw up a link or two, make a short statement about why something being stated is either too broad of a generalization or is just straight up incorrect, and then I do not read their replies. Because that is where they want you. They want to take you force you into an 80 comment flame war.
A fascinating series, I cannot agree more. His other works too like protagony/agency. I really hope he can find a way to do more like that, but as a more personal video from him mentioned (not on the channel iirc, search for his name instead) that depends on funding support.
To sum up: it is far easier to tear down than to build up. :-| Also, truth is often stranger than fiction, and much harder to pin down and truly understand.
Really I guess these are not merely two opposing sides of the same argument, but literally represent opposing worldviews.
For the uninformed: The Alt-Right Playbook
A must watch ^
Basically everything he has made is fantastic. His gamergate talk is excellent and super relevant to the sweet baby inc. nonsense (aka Gamergate 2: Fuckboi Boogaloo)
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Real (enough) to someone, I suppose.
Right up until they aren’t anymore. e.g. when someone chooses not to take the vaccine, somehow MANY of those (I wonder if perhaps nearly all?) end up in hospitals, spreading their diseases to others and putting stress on the already-overworked system.
I legit would not judge someone who for whatever reasons decided to withdraw from society, like Amish, and not take the vaccine, but DO social distance for the sake of others, and then die but like… fully by their own, informed & rational choices according to their own valuation of priorities in their life. I fully respect that.
It is the hypocritical nature of those who are not informed, yet act to block others’ access from knowledge and benefits of society, that I am against. These people will judge themselves later on, once they finally cannot escape into their fantasies quite so comfortably, except by then they have already dragged others along with them. In short: they are shocked, Shocked I tell you, SHOCKED to find that actions have consequences. But… they should not have been so shocked?! An ounce of preparation is worth a pound of cure, as the saying goes.
TLDR: it is irresponsible, childish behavior, from adults who should know better.
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I remember those videos by mothers who killed their children by refusing to allow them to receive vaccinations. They were heart-rending stories told by those who KNEW, whereas before they only THOUGHT that they knew. Before it happened, they were obstinate and ignored all medical advice and did the exact opposite. After it happened… then they REALLY knew that they had screwed up. And they begged, pleading with other mothers not to do the same. They were ofc ignored, by those who similarly KNOW better, despite literally all of the evidence to the contrary.
Or you can go to old graveyards, and see grave after grave of infants who died young, from what are today easily-preventable diseases. Something like 4 out of 5 children died prior to 5 years of age iirc (or even if that is wrong, still more than half?), so much so that religious ceremonies still practiced today make that age a cutoff - like before that the child doesn’t even have a name, but after that it suddenly is considered a likely candidate to grow up into a full person, thus is finally worthy of being officially given a name.
I do have empathy for people with mental illnesses who cannot handle processing in the real world, but I also have empathy for all the people who have DIED b/c of those dumb-shit behaviors. Especially when they push further and refuse to allow OTHERS to have the kind of care that they want. Like, choose for yourself sure, but you do not have the right to choose for someone else. That is not only merely unintelligent, but childish on their parts. At least, that is true in the best-case scenario, while the worst is that it is linked to authoritarianism, which sadly is the most likely one in many cases - e.g. these people would turn you in to the government, if that was asking, just exactly like if we were real, actual Nazis. Like, “hey, lookie here, this person took the vaccine!!” (or had an abortion, or even a miscarriage) Even they do not want to have to live in that kind of world - e.g. having to call someone by their preferred pronouns - but they will absolutely heap that burden upon you if they think that they themselves will be exempt, leopards-ate-my-face style.
ITT: not one person who knows what far left is.
Left is to redistribute the land. Far left is to redistribute the landlords too.
Far left is no landlords really. Like maybe small scale for like older people who prefer not to own condos and do any maintenance in elderly years, or students or people temporarily in another country or something, but no massive bloated greedy parasites like now.
I think the distinction comes in how you get there.
How would apartments work, ideally? I guess have a contract where everyone living in the apartments owns a percentage of the building, and therefore the community of people that live there are responsible for building maintenance and other stuff like that, right?
I feel like this is easy to answer and I’m not sure why the question comes up so often.
People have jobs and get payed salaries to both build and maintain houses/apartments. Rent payments would go to pay the actual people that did the building / do the maintenance. Nobody makes profit off this. No landlord, no investor, no profit. The money goes to cover building costs, then maintenance. Easy peasy.
We have things like this. People build and maintain our public roads, schools, water/sewer systems, fire departments, military, etc.
No profits. No landlord gets free money for renting. No wallstreet investor gets free money for selling at high market values, etc.
Obviously, decisions have to be made about supply/demand, areas where lots of people want to live and all that. So what? Let’s make those decisions intelligently instead of greed and profit driven.
My friend lives in a co-op apartment that works exactly like that and it works very well.
You just described a housing cooperative. This form of collective ownership aligns owner and renter/home owner stakeholders as the same person and is a special form of consumer cooperative. Housing cooperatives are especially prevalent in the nordic countries. They keep prices down as they aren’t owned by shareholders who want continuous profit. The problem with this style of firm is that they tend to dissolve after the tenets collectively pay off the property and seek to sell rather than maintain or expand the cöop. This occured after world war 2 in France as a bunch of post war building were quickly built and the coops that built them were dissolved.
Yeah, but there is the authoritarian state owned housing way and the anarchist housing cooperative way. Political science isn’t linear.
I think they meant eat the rich
Let’s redistribute the farlands!
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I feel like you’re intentionally using a definition of left wing that is essentially “Every thing I like is Left, everything bad is right”. Most people think of absolute free speech as a right wing position, mostly because theyve listened to people who identify as left talk about free speech curtailment to suit them for a long time
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All censorship is bad. whether it’s a private corporation with a monopoly or a government doing it doesn’t matter, all censorship is bad.
I totally agree with you that the government should never be involved in censoring anything, but differ on private corporations, especially as far as the internet is concerned.
The internet as a whole should never be censored. People should always be able to make their own website with whatever they want on there, even if it will get them arrested. The owners of a website should always have control over the content that they allow, though.
If the owners of a company don’t want to see hate speech or extreme content on their own product than it should always be their right to remove it. If the majority of the public doesn’t want to see Nazi shit on a social media site then it will always be in that corporations best interest to remove it, or people will stop using it.
All censorship is bad, but some of it is a necessary evil to keep the internet from being flooded with hate speech, gore, and CSAM. I will say that some companies take it way too far with the things that they censor, and it sucks, but it is within their right.
Things change. Maybe painting libertarians, randian libertarians, conservatives, republicans and the Unabomber as all the same wing muddies the waters.
Far right: everything is black and white.
Far left: everything is blue and pink.
Reality:
The true beauty of the atom.
Both sides see in black and white, but for far different reasons, the far left want to eliminate the concept of profit over people, while the far right want to eliminate people that dont fit inside their rigid and arbitrary ‘moral’ structures.
That’s the left view of left vs right, now do the right view of left vs right.
Did you notice how you cant refute my statement? Leaving your only option to call this a one sided assessment of the status quo, while in actuality it sums up of the state of current affairs quite succinctly. Popcorn do be good though.
The left is the party of trying to help the lowest so everyone can live a decent life and the right is the party of trying to achieve the best possible life for a few of the highest
No, they were right the first time.
They don’t understand it, but you just beautifully summarised the problem with American society right now.
It’s interesting innit, that the reddit migration to Lemmy gave the most vocal ideologues a place to gather, and a reason not to go back. I wonder if the discussion on Reddit is a bit more nuanced now?
Ah, the classic tactic of “if people disagree, it’s because they don’t understand!”
Yep. That’s clearly how it has and always will work across the non-US globe. Got me!
You’re just supporting this clueless “both sides” narrative with exactly no nuance. The right is factually incorrect and is centered around supporting hierarchy, regardless of vibes, while the left opposes hierarchy. Polarization is not what’s wrong with American society, it’s a symptom of the underlying cause, which is Capitalism’s decay.
The right-wing view is “morally superior, upstanding, decent, hard-working” vs. “godless, naive, degenerate traitors and smelly hippies”.
Aye, reverse it and replace godless with god-fearing, and hippies with rednecks, and you nailed it!
Dehumanize “the other” and you can say and do whatever you want, as long as it’s against the other team. Populace Control 101.
Sad to see so many people falling for it so rampantly, but inevitable. It’s just the Internet during American election season at this point.
Nah. If they’re wrong, go ahead and correct them yourself.
I just like to see the lemmings in action.
But, since you asked nicely, I’ll rephrase it as a conservative would. As I think someone should believe what feels right to them, but at least understand the mind and motivations of your opposition, otherwise you will fail in your goals. That’s something not one of the 10 downvoters and 5 commenters have been able to do.
The far left seeks to eradicate the fundamental principles of individual initiative and free enterprise in favor of a collectivist agenda, they’re in favor of legalization of all drugs and the murder of children and don’t understand that a functioning society is a fragile house of cards. They think that children growing up without one or both parents is perfectly fine, and the child will in turn be a well-adjusted adult, regardless. They want to open the borders to let every spy, murderer, and rapist into their neighborhood. The far right aims to preserve traditional values and defend against the erosion of societal norms by those advocating for radical change.
Internet proselytization is this generations’ version of Vietnam-era I’d Love to Change the World.
I’d love to change the world
But I don’t know what to do
So I’ll leave it up to you.
I get it. The state of the world right now is a sad mess. But if you’re going to fight a war you can win, you must first understand the basics.
Okay great job you dressed up some hateful shit with jingoistic buzzwords. What’s your point? We’ve all heard this before, no one is unaware of the rationalizations that conservatives tell themselves to justify their hatred and selfishness as tough love and societal stewardship.
Okay, now what are the rationalizations that progressives/liberals/Democrats/leftists/whatever the preferred term that’s the opposite of ‘conservative’ tell themselves?
Keep in mind, you’re including the entire group here, as you did with ‘conservatives’, so anything any [preferred leftist term] does means it’s representative of the entire group.
Again, what’s your point? You think you’re being clever but you’re just sniping at strawmen with old ammunition.
You lost me at leftists want to murder children…
You clearly don’t understand the beliefs and motives of your political opponents.
You lost me at
Doesn’t matter, because in this thought experiment you’re not the conservative who believes abortion is murder.
Good luck with your
sports team ideological shitpostspolitical memes, I guess.Lmao I understand them far too well.
Both extremes are obnoxious
“I want to eradicate non-whites and install a christo-fascist dictator” is as obnoxious as “all people deserve housing and healthcare and a system based on extracting all excess profit from workers is exploitation”
Still relevant, more so than whatever side you are picking from both shitty choices.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=mVXYH9tRknc
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
“Ethnonationalism is awesome” and “equality is a good and achievable goal” are not remotely equal in terms of how obnoxious it is, unless you legitimately sit in between those two.
